With a manual transmission, you are allowed the freedom to pick the starting-line rpm you want to apply when you dump the clutch. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. On early Ultramatic-equipped Packards, the lockup clutch would not engage until road speed reached at least 15 mph (24 km/h) even on a light throttle. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. Accessing certain posts or pages on this website may require you to enter a specific password. It will also integrate that knowledge with what type of car and transmission consumers are buying. Estimate Converter Slip. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. by SirHandyMan Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 am, Post With the clutch engaged, Ultramatic also transmitted some drivetrain vibration that the torque converter would otherwise have absorbed. Ate Up With Motor and its embedded content providers may use cookies and/or similar technologies and collect personal information about site visitors as described in the Privacy Policy and Cookie Notice. Just thought I would share with everyone some recent learnings I've had with my 2010 EB Flex. I would suggest starting with the transmission upper mount and also a transmission fluid drain and fill. For more information, please see our For a drag-race car, the cost of this additional slippage is worth the price, but for a street car it creates other problems. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Because of the lack of traction and limited tires, it's not critical that a street engine launch at peak-torque rpm. When that connection is fully engaged, the fluid clutchs torus members are effectively locked together they must turn together at engine speed and transmit no torque. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. At idle and very low road speeds, slippage is desirable because it keeps the engine from stalling or lugging in gear. A flyweight 2,800-pound car like an early Mustang or Chevy II could use less multiplication to successfully launch on their relatively smaller rear tires. To learn more about the specific cookies used and/or to fine-tune your available choices, click "Privacy Preferences" at the right. Not all the listed cookies and/or data items are necessarily set in all instances, and there may sometimes be others not listed above, particularly if you are logged into a Google account. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Happens roughly 1-3 times in 30 mile drive at speeds of up to 60mph, and much more frequent at highway speeds (70+). The cookies are not set at all unless you select that option when submitting a comment. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. (For each of these cookies, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) another masterpiece. (Those pages do not currently discuss the storage of data in your browser (or other user agent) using technologies other than cookies, e.g., in web storage.) That should make you and your car happy. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. In first and second gears, the converter turbine drove the front annulus (ring gear). Those gear ratios were in addition to the torque multiplication provided by the torque converter. Sep 16, 2013 #11 4 Its job is to smoothly convert engine torque into hydraulic pressure that your transmission uses to engage and shift gears. (author diagram). The PYPF cookie normally expires in approximately four weeks, the 01A1 cookie in approximately one year. I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. 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This has been a quick jaunt through world of torque converters, but it should at least inspire some intelligent questions to ask your converter company of choice as to the best converter for your application. Torque converters can be serviced or replaced as a single unit. Unsurprisingly, each engagement or disengagement of the lockup clutch felt like a shift, giving less technically knowledgeable drivers the mistaken impression that Ultramatic was a two-speed automatic. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. For more information about what data PayPal services collect and how that data may be used, visit the "Legal Agreements for PayPal Services" page to review the PayPal Privacy Statement and Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that apply in your location (the Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that applies to each region is linked from within the applicable PayPal Privacy Statement). In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). Reaction torque locked the rear sun gear against the rear one-way clutch, driving the planet carrier and output shaft forward at 69.7% (1 / 1.44) of turbine speed. A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). I feel better and it makes more sense now. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:24 pm, Post Ate Up With Motor, its logo, and other associated icons and graphics are trademarks and/or service marks of Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. As these vehicles age, diagnosing these issues can become more challenging. ), These third-party cookies may be set in connection with embedded video players for content hosted on the Vimeo video platform, for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings, storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), associating your video viewing and other activity with your Vimeo account (if you have one), showing you advertising, ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. There will typically be several such cookies, each beginning with "gdpr" (e.g., gdpr[allowed_cookies], gdpr&5Bprivacy_bar&5D, and gdpr[consent_types]). A multi-disc clutch can lock that carrier to the front sun gear, which is also attached to the rear brake drum (dark red). During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a, I am just trying to see how the management of this company can justify ignoring, or walking away from the T43 stuff right now, I am aware of the size of the Dodge Diesel market.I for one do not care about Dodge Cummins products, I have turned so many of my customers onto EFI Live from HPT or SCT that it kills me to have to tune a TCM with one software and ECM with another. but the question is when i put my buddys obd code finder on it. I had unlimited tow loaded and he thought maybe it wasn't playing nice with my trans. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. Opening the throttle further could delay engagement to a maximum of 56 mph (90 km/h). However, Wilson gearboxes were quite bulky and complex because the nature of their operation required a separate set of epicyclic gears for each ratio, including reverse. Although this arrangement sacrificed some of the smoothness that was the main rationale for early automotive torque converter transmissions, it made Ultramatic more efficient than the early Dynaflow, at least at cruising speeds. On some prewar bus and rail car transmissions with lockup torque converters, the lockup clutch was engaged manually, but automotive lockup clutches are designed to engage and disengage automatically. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. Tire slip is likely causing your speed difference. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. if someone would have put in a used ecu ,fron a electric controlled aod. Once governor pressure was sufficient to overcome the combined spring and throttle valve pressure, oil would be applied to the clutch cylinder, engaging the lockup clutch. Big cars weighing over 3,300 pounds generally need a converter with more torque multiplication. This overran the rear unit planet carrier, unlocking the rear sun gears one-way clutch and putting the transmission in direct drive. PLEASE DON'T SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED CONTENT YOU AREN'T AUTHORIZED TO USE! Embedded video players for content hosted on the YouTube video platform (which is owned by Google LLC) may set these third-party cookies and/or use similar technologies to store data in your browser (or other user agent) for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings (e.g., tailoring the playback to your connection speed), storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), showing you advertisements, associating your video viewing and other activity with your Google account (if any), ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. With automated hydraulic operation and combinations of brakes and clutches, it was possible to get the same results more efficiently. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. Utimately, I installed a recycled transmission from a junk yard and a remanufactured torque converter from Ford. Once your torque converter starts failing, you need to be knowledgeable about what torque converter problems will disable your car? Remember, you don't experience either symptom unless you have the wrong amount of fluid or the wrong fluid in the transmission. (Until late 1954, the transmissions planetary gearset always remain in direct drive unless the driver manually selected Low.) You've now repaired or replaced your torque converter if it exhibited any of the above common torque converter problems. Privacy Policy. Your torque converter is full of fluid, and its jobis to act as a hydraulic pump and acts as a coupling between the engine and the transmission. Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. If oil pressure to the cylinder was relieved, the pressure plate would no longer be held against the clutch plate, disengaging the clutch and allowing the torque converter to function normally. One thing Ive always wondered about was if any manufacturers looked into Wilson pre-selector gearboxes as a basis of an automatic. Hydraulic slippage also offers some advantages during acceleration: As with a plate clutch, a certain amount of slip makes for a much smoother takeoff. Shifting to third gear was accomplished by engaging the torque converter lockup clutch. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. Your car's automatic transmission has a torque converter. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. copyright 2023 AAMCO transmissions inc. In the Packard Ultramatic transmission, the input shaft drives the hub of the direct drive clutch and the input sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset (all colored medium blue). With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. by Silver Flex SEL. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. It was followed in fairly short order by the 1950 Studebaker Automatic Drive, which took a somewhat different approach to the same problem. 7.3L Power Stroke - Aftermarket & Performance. It's not more specific because stall speed is highly dependent upon engine torque. by Silver Flex SEL. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. The only problem - there's a boat-load of information and I only know how to interpret a fraction of it. The TCC solenoid regulates the fluid pressure to the clutch. Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, Re: Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.co 733.0.html. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, Post A forum community dedicated to Ford Power Stroke owners and enthusiasts. The trans temp was never above 160 degrees. 2011 Flex Limited AWD EcoBoost - Mediterranean Blue Metallic/Silver Roof. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. what is the protocol using AE to diagnosis torque slip. For people who want a broader overview, I would recommend a book by Philip G. Gott entitled Changing Gears: The Development of the Automotive Transmission, published by the SAE as part of their Historical Series in 1991. I was running the KEM 250 and 310 tunes. But this shuttering is not caused by a disease. The _gat cookie, which may appear as _gat_gtag_UA_6113964_2, was sometimes set along with the _ga and _gid cookies to control how frequently requests were sent to the Google Analytics servers; this cookie typically persisted for only a few minutes at a time. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. You must be at least 18 to comment. abs thank you for posting your experience here. Ate Up With Motor's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy may be revised from time to time. The confusion stems from the symptoms of a failing transmission, and a failing torque converter is very similar and linked. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:27 pm, Post We may sometimes present an alternative version of the sidebar offering different options, which may set the a11y-desaturated, a11y-high-contrast, and/or a11y-larger-fontsize cookies if you change those settings. The image file itself contains no personally identifiable information, but the loading of that file may be used to help identify and/or track you. register to join our community With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. The wire chaffing is a definite possibility. This created the demand for a lockup converter employing an internal clutch inside the converter to directly connect the turbine with the input shaft of the transmission just like a manual-transmission clutch. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. Most Torque Converters today also use a friction clutch to lock up the converter at higher speeds to create more fuel efficiency and less slip. I had "guessed" that it could have been a valve body issue when trying to diagnose on my own and I replaced that to no avail. the only readings i got was for all the electronically controlled aod. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) 91.234.33.200 When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. 2. The downside to these converters is that they are heavier and more expensive than non-lockup converters. The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. The impellers spun by the engine's crankshaft. As long as this mechanical lockup remains fully engaged, there is no slip, which improves fuel economy (typically by around 4% at cruising speeds) and provides throttle response and engine braking comparable to a vehicle with a manual gearbox. Although torque converters are ideal launch devices for. For more information about how Akamai may collect, process, and/or use personal data, visit the Akamai "Privacy and Policies" page and Privacy Trust Center. The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. Doesn't seem to coincide with vehicle shifting though. Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. U.S. Pat. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. The cookieconsent_status cookie recorded whether or not you consented to analytics tracking and told the website to hide the notification banner; this cookie normally expires after about one year. This is why a disc clutch must be disengaged or the transmission shifted to neutral whenever the vehicle stops. Privacy Statement - ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. Well Aaron . I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. The wp-donottrack_feed cookie, which controls a blog feed, was set by accessing the dashboard menu for the WP DoNotTrack plugin (which we do not currently use on this website); this cookie normally expires in about one year. I've got reason to believe my torque converter is going out, which readings can I look at to determine if that's actually my problem? The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. The Vimeo Cookie Policy also provides information about how Vimeo users can control the use of third-party analytics and/or advertising cookies in connection with embedded Vimeo video players. This is a remarkably broad, convoluted, and idiosyncratic field and theres a LOT I dont know. If the engine isnt free to turn faster than the driveshaft at rest or extremely low speeds, the engine will stall! To resolve the issue, I have reduce the desired slip to 10 rpm in 3-6th gear and increased the + side of the apply ramp table by about 10% across the board and up to 30% in the slip rpm of 2-12. mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! Thanks for this. check out the. but my truck has 25k on it and 10k tuned.. so im thinking mines not on the way out and its got 20rpm slip. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. To learn more about how Google may use information collected by the Google Analytics service, see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, and the Google Privacy Policy.
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